Question by Gorgoroth: Jews – is a JEW or a ger allowed to study ANCIENT PAGAN or NEO-PAGAN mysticism and occultism?
well i am aware that the god of Israel is such a jealous deity that he can’t take it even when someone does something which may result in just a little honor to a different deity (as it said in the book of Exodus – “for haShem your god is a jealous god”)
but if i’ll except pagan teachings that doesn’t necessary mean that i except their gods and goddesses
can i at least study such religions as Thelma or Hermetism? how about wicca? Hasidic druidism? am i at least allowed to study New Age teachings?
i also want to note that i am only converting to Judaism and not yet a Jew
but i AM aware that non-Jews was also forbidden to worship other deities beside the god of Israel
in Kitsur Shulhan Aruh it’s said that reading pagan writings is forbidden
also it said that it is forbidden to take benefit from ANYTHING which may have to do something with avodah zarah
i see the knowledge i receive from them as a benefit
i don’t stufy it to know how to perfume certain practices
i study it for the knowledge
Best answer:
Answer by AutumnMystick78
mysticism and occultism does not make any demands as to the worship of other deities. There are many orders that are ecclectic and do not require a deity at all. The true esoteric studies move beyind the idea of deity all together. (at least those worth the name)
As to the answer from the Jewish perspective I cannot speak on their behalf.
What do you think? Answer below!
why would you limit yourself- because one god says he is jealous- i think you should not limit yourself- i didn’t and i am wiser for it
I am Jewish. I was born Jewish and study in a Yeshiva. I have studied ancient pagan mystic belief. I have studied many religions. That does not mean, I accept those beliefs. I do not. I study Nazi Germany too and of course am not a Nazi.
I study other religions to better learn about other people and cultures, not to accept them as my own. I seek to understand, not take into my soul. I am comfortable enough in my own religion to feel I can look at others.
I have studied Wiccan and some New Age teachings as well but again, I didn’t become Wiccan or devote myself to crystals.
I worship G-d and G-d alone. I don’t think G-d begrudges anyone learning but those who are not secure in their own beliefs often cannot tolerate others learning about a different religion.
I read Harry Potter and yet don’t believe I have any magical abilities. It was fiction. I read WIccan for Dummies (or the Idiots Guide, I can’t remember which) and found it interesting but embraced no “theology” of it. I have read the Book of Mormon and found it very interesting but believed none of it.
Learning is important. Knowing what you believe and what you hold to be true, is even more so.
It depends on WHY you are reading such material. if it is purely from interest , to learn what other people believe and thus understand the truth within Judaism- its cool. After all, even in the Torah it remarks that a judge must study witchcraft in order to recognise it and be able to act against it.
However, if you are looking to study it because you wish to practice it or because you wish to adopt some of its practices, then it is completely forbidden.
edit: Yes- Kitzur gives the strict answer- if you want to find more lenient opinions you have to read the full Shulkhan Aruch as Kitzur is only a summary, However, the lenient options are not that lenient- even then it is very much discouraged unless the person has very strong reasons for it- such as needing to read and understand material to prebet people from converting or, as a I said with Judges and witchcraft/sorcery, needing to know the material so it can be countered when the real thing is encountered. Idle curiosity is not seen as a valid reason- you see this with the story of Acher- the student of Rabbi Akivah that ends up becoming an apostate when he ascends into the heavenly realms with Rabbi Akiva- there it states that he was led into it because he read the books of idol worshippers and thus he misunderstood what he saw because of the pagan concepts he had studied.
In short, if you have a very strong reason to study such material, it is allowed to a liited extent. The strictest opinions (as reflected in Kitzur) completely forbid it. IF you are planning on converting (or already cnverting), discuss it with your sponsoring Rabbi- though I would expect them to discourage it since you have alot of studying about Judaism still!
The point about not gaining benefit from idoltarous practices/material in anyway is directly out of the Torah- as is the law against any form of witchcraft. If you are studying these materials with the intent of trying out spells or practicing any of the occult or mystical pratices within them- that is COMPLETELY FORBIDDEN. There is no opinion anywhere that would allow it- reading to understand there practices and to know what to avoid is one thing- studying it to practice it is completely and utterly out.
I’ll go back and star this after I answer it and hope that a few of my contacts who know the details of halacha better than I do on this will respond. However, from my life as a Jew, and my life-long interest and study of comparative religion, I think it is important for Jews to know what people of the world believe to better understand history and human behavior. It is most important that Jews know our own history and religion, but to better place it into perspective, we also need to learn what others believe in relation to us. I’ve studied comparative religions, trying to use reputable sources and the holy texts of the adherents of those other religions to learn from, rather than from what others say ABOUT them, because i know with certainty that the primary reason there is so much misinformation about Judaism is because most folk aren’t learning about it from us but from what others say about us.
We are teachers whether or not we want to be. For most non-Jews who know so little about Judaism..their idea of Jews is formed by what they read in the news ( biased against us despite the antisemitic canard of Jews controlling the media ) the stereotypes of TV, what the NT says in error about Judaism and demonization of jews and ..an important factor..the behavior of people around them they identify as Jews. Every Jew is a role model whether they want that role or not. We are a tribal family and we also expect more of our own while we work together for the benefit of all our extended human family in Tikkun Olam.
We are forbidden to worship other deities, yes. I do not know that we are forbidden to learn about other beliefs.
Accepting pagan teachings..that’s a fine line..you can find and relate to wisdom found in the teachings of many other cultures, because all humans are connected and wisdom is not confined to any one people. Torah teaches us that the righteous of all nations merit blessing, Gentiles are shown to be blessed in stories throughout the Tanakh..we simply must be careful to learn to discern between the wisdom we can learn from another’s path while we are careful not to mingle aspects of their customs or culture into the path of Judaism.
Ezekiel and other prophets echoed this warning time and again.
We are not forbidden from contact with idolaters and pagans, but we are forbidden to incorporate their ways into our path.
“They said of Rabbi Yochanan ben Zakai that no man ever greeted him
first, even idol worshippers in the market” [i.e., Rabbi Yochanan ben
Zakai was the first to greet every person, even idol worshippers]
(Berachot 17).
“[it is proper to] support the idol worshippers during the sabbatical
year …. and to inquire after their welfare [commentators: even on the
days of the holidays of their idols, even if they do not keep the
seven Noahide commandments] because of the ways of peace.” (Shevi’it4,3)
‘We support poor Gentiles with the poor people of Israel, and we
visit sick Gentiles as well as the sick of Israel and we bury the
dead of the Gentiles as well as the dead of Israel, because of the
ways of peace.” (Gitin 61a)
There is a difference, and even a young child can distinguish it, between trying to be more than one thing rather than being one and learning about the other.
If you try to intermingle different paths, doctrines ( often utterly incompatible) and cultures, you’re doing no service to any of them.
I have read the holy texts of most of the world’s major religions in English translations..this doesn’t mean that I have tried to adopt any of them, but I’ve tried to understand them as objectively as I can. I can recognize wisdom in many words of the Dhamapadas and the Rig Vedas, but that does not mean they take me away from my faith in Judaism. In reading the New Testament, because I’ve read and learned about many beliefs of the world, I clearly recognized that it is has very little “Jewish roots”, but mostly pagan Hellenized and Roman beliefs with Hebraicised cloaking and redefinition of Hebrew terms and history. I also clearly recognized the most Jewish part of the New Testament, the “Lord’s Prayer” in a Torah context, how it describes the process of Teshuvah. A Christian whose perspective of Judaism is only from their New Testament reflection would not see this.
it can be a two way street..I wish that more people would try to learn about Judaism from the perspective of Jewish texts..then it wouldn’t be so much work to try to correct misconceptions. The words and works are out there, if only they would be read. Understanding is the result of learning..and I can’t see how that is a bad thing.
Shalom
EDIT: lol!!! allonyoav was the person I was strongly thinking about in hopes that by my starring this he would come to see it..and he beat me to posting an answer while I was off rambling my long answer. Thanks! ( was there some kind of ESP going between Arkansas and South Africa?? lol!)
EDIT: It appears from your additional details that you’re looking to justify a method of following more than one path..you really cannot become a sincere convert to Judaism if you wish to follow anything other than Judaism.
I would need to see the passages in context to which you refer, as I understand Jewish law to mean that Jews may not benefit from idolatry ( avodah zara meaning foreign idolatrous worship) would imply that the “offending” Jew would follow the worship or customs of idolatry to benefit from it..that isn’t anything different than what has already been said.
I hope you share these thoughts and concerns with the Rabbi with whom you are studying so that you can together determine if Judaism is your path, or if you may be better suited for another. It can’t ever hurt to continue to study and explore Judaism, and for you to continue to study religion and philosophy overall, to help you determine for yourself what it is you want as your path in life. You can explore more than one path, but you’ll find it easier to get lost if you don’t ultimately choose one and stick to it.
I certainly benefit from knowledge I’ve gained in studying about other people’s philosophies and religions, but that does not imply that I desire to take on their religions. It is this difference that IMHO that I am not sure you are clear in comprehending. If you take on their practices to use the wisdom you see, you really aren’t a candidate for being a Jew at least at this point in your life. To convert to Judaism, you take on an obligation to live as a Jew.
Shalom and I wish you luck in finding your path
There are many qualities and attributes that Hashem has, which also reflect the different qualities of people.
There isn’t anything wrong with studying different faiths, and if you are considering the possibility of conversion: I would in fact encourage you to study and read up on everything you can.
Perhaps Judaism may not be a right fit, or you find a better connection with the philosophies of Thelema and Hermetism.
Ultimately, it is your choice and your decision. Studying up on things does not make you believe in them. It just makes you more knowledgeable to the different societal aspects of culture.
The concept of God is really something mostly expressed in Judaism. If a person is a *righteous* non-Jew, then they don’t worship any other deities, but we don’t believe that people are bad because they worship other faiths.
Judaism maintains that there are many paths to God.
(Edit: Fixed typos..Sorry I’m really tired today)
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The KSA, is a guide to how halachah is “followed,” but really overdoes it: There are a LOT of people who don’t follow the guidelines set by the KSA.
Keep in mind that it is a basing of that particular Rabbi’s take on laws. This works are NOT binding in the same way as the Mishneh Torah or the Shulkhan Arukh.
If you’re just trying to read the KSA by yourself, I suggest that you bring this up with your Rabbi in short.
Well, most “pagan” writings are about religions that are contrary to Judaism.
I see no reason why a Jew cannot follow mysticism or occultism, so long as the particular path is not at cross-purposes with Judaic law.
Wicca is one example. It’s a polytheisitc religion. If you’re not following polytheistic deities, you’re not practicing Wicca. So Judaism and Wicca don’t work.
But many Western occult works are based off of Kaballah and other Jewish writings. The Hebrew language is intrinsic to some magical systems, so I don’t see the conflict.
I’m sure you can study whatever you want to, but
from the tone of your question it seems to me
that you are not comfortable with the Judaic deity,
and I recommend you think twice about converting.
Perhaps you should check out this brief evaluation
of the Hebrew bible and see if it’s really the sort of
religion that you want to get involved with…
http://www.religioustolerance.org/god_cana.htm
Jean